1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,160
The man and an elderly lady was visible in this class.

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,720
They took the glass out and took it over to the Smithsonian, but they had no explanation

3
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:11,720
for it either.

4
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:12,720
So then?

5
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,400
Then the Smithsonian never sent it back.

6
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,040
I mean it still may be there with a photographic like that, but the paint was still in the

7
00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:21,040
place.

8
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:22,040
As far as I know it was there.

9
00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:23,840
That was the last place it was recorded.

10
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:24,840
I know.

11
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:25,840
That's kept secret.

12
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:34,720
You know that's the case of this famous rabbi Elijah, who had the curse as he put it, of

13
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,840
memorizing every book that he read.

14
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:42,120
And he could start anywhere in the book and pull forward or backward or bait him.

15
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,800
And at the time of his death they estimated that he had committed to memory more than

16
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:46,800
2,000 books.

17
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:47,800
John.

18
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:54,040
This is W-O-R Radio, your station in New York, and this is Long John with the party

19
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,040
line.

20
00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,520
This day was the unprecedented crime of committing murder by hypnotism.

21
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:02,520
This was in Denmark.

22
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:03,520
Yes, Denmark.

23
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:09,320
Do you know of any other countries in the world where a hypnotist was imprisoned for

24
00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:10,320
committing murder?

25
00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:11,320
I've never heard of one.

26
00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:12,320
I've never.

27
00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:13,320
That's why I use the story.

28
00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:18,720
It's attracted quite a bit of attention and there was a great deal of expert testimony

29
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:19,720
in connection with it.

30
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:25,080
In the course of this, in a court of law and after the process of law, they decided that

31
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,360
the hypnotist was guilty rather than his subject.

32
00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:28,360
How did this...

33
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:29,360
Did you have any...

34
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:36,480
When you did this research, did you find out how Paul Paul had came under the spell of

35
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:37,480
this...

36
00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,600
Well, I first picked this up from a wire service story.

37
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:50,600
And then later through the Danish Embassy, I got copies of the court records on the thing.

38
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,600
It's a very fascinating thing.

39
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,600
It's a long, long-grown-out trial.

40
00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,600
Of course, there's a great deal of the expert testimony.

41
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,600
Did you get any information at all as to how this man got into the hypnotism?

42
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,600
I mean, how he was subjugated to this hypnotist.

43
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,600
I mean, how he happened to...

44
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,600
How did he happen to get involved with the hypnotist?

45
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,600
Yes.

46
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,600
Well, no, I don't know that I...

47
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,600
I don't recall that I did.

48
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:25,600
And as to his particular testimonies, to why he submitted, he was a kind of a weak-willed

49
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,600
character to begin with, although he'd never been in any trouble, he'd never done much.

50
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:36,600
I recall that he worked only irregularly and he was not a very forceful individual.

51
00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:45,600
And Nielsen, of course, didn't go to any length to tell why he did this, but the evidence showed that he had...

52
00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:46,600
They were friends, weren't they?

53
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,600
I believe they were, yes.

54
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,600
They were buddies and he submitted time after time to this hypnotic treatment.

55
00:02:54,600 --> 00:03:01,600
Frank, just for a small switch of pace here, there is one very delightful story in your book about a...

56
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,600
A book of...

57
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,600
A Loris-Janak.

58
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,600
Why don't you tell us?

59
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:14,600
There is a monument to the very purpose and, of course, there was no troubling documenting this one because...

60
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:23,600
It's a matter of record, and it's been told actually quite a few times in various maritime journals.

61
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:32,600
But this Loris-Janak was a huge, great purpose that appeared in the Straits of the Loris.

62
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,600
That's near French Pass down near Australia.

63
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:37,600
It was evened actually.

64
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:46,600
It's a very dangerous stretch of water and many a sailing ship had gone down in there, striking the rocks and this stretcher is current from these crosswinds.

65
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:54,600
But this purpose appeared one day and played along the bowels of the ship and when the weather got real bad all of a sudden,

66
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,600
the purpose stayed right in front of the bowels and kept leaping along.

67
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:07,600
And since the pilot had nothing else to go by, he followed the purpose and came through the dangerous pass without any ill effects at all.

68
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,600
He had a perfect pilot.

69
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:20,600
And this purpose actually worked this life-saving business routine down there for about 40 years before he finally died, apparently of old age.

70
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:26,600
But on one occasion, a drunken passenger shocked the purpose and they thought that Jack had been killed.

71
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:41,600
They saw that it was wounded and he disappeared for quite a while, a couple of years I think, and then he reappeared and he lived literally hundreds of ships through this dangerous pass and never lost a passenger.

72
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:53,600
But the ship that on which the drunken passenger shot him, he would never lead that ship through again and it eventually was wrecked in there with a heavy loss of life.

73
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,600
I guess we call that section the purpose of revenge.

74
00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:05,600
But the grateful sailors and sailing companies erected a monument to him down there on the beach and it's still there at this day.

75
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:12,600
It's about 12 feet high and it shows this purpose leaping along and on the base of it is the story of Dolores Jack.

76
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:22,600
The purpose called right in front of the ship, when they got into the strong currents and narrow tunnels, he went right in front of the bowels of the ships.

77
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:32,600
But at other times he played along beside them when they were in fairly open water and crossed back and forth under the ship but seemed to be playing around like a puppy with a bone.

78
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,600
I watched them out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

79
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,600
They come along there and they're fantastic.

80
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:45,600
They come out and they sort of make a circular flash through the air and they dip in and dip out again in the circular directions.

81
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:53,600
There's also amazing stories about purposes recorded during World War II about flyers shot down in the Pacific.

82
00:05:53,600 --> 00:06:06,600
In one of the cases where the school of purposes found a pilot shot down in the Pacific and when he saw them swimming towards them he became hysterical because he thought they were sharks.

83
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:18,600
The fins were sticking out of the water and these purposes ganged up on him and started to nudge him towards swimming along, offering him in front of them.

84
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:26,600
Before long they tossed him up on the beach of an island that he had not known was there or anything else.

85
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:27,600
They literally saved his life.

86
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,600
I think that was recorded twice that it happened.

87
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:40,600
The marine land of the Pacific, that's south of LA, these are probably just tricks that have been taught these purposes but it's an amazing thing to watch.

88
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,600
They have a fellow who gets out on the plank over the tank.

89
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:45,600
Have you seen these things?

90
00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,600
And he pretends to be taking a picture with his little box camera and falls in.

91
00:06:50,600 --> 00:07:00,600
And when he starts floundering this big porpoise comes and grabs him by the collar and just takes him flying across that tank and right up to the ladder and then throws his hand up after him.

92
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,600
Amazing thing about the training of these purposes for any kind of question to somebody.

93
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:12,600
It's not done, I don't think, beginning with a spateology ruin.

94
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,600
It's a porpoise. It is done with an adult porpoise.

95
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,600
In other words normally an animal can teach these tricks.

96
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,600
You will do it at the earliest possible stage and have that much more ability to do it.

97
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,600
But here these are full grown so called adult porpoises that they can teach these tricks too.

98
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,600
That's a very interesting aspect.

99
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,600
Actually there's a very strange story.

100
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:43,600
This marine marine in Florida they had a shock.

101
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,600
A baby shock was born and the mother died.

102
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,600
So someone got the idea of turning the baby shock over to a porpoise.

103
00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:01,600
And the porpoise took the shock, the baby shock, but the thing that they hadn't calculated on is that something went wrong with the baby shock.

104
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,600
The porpoise is a member of the whale family so it's really a mammal.

105
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,600
But the shock is a fish and it breeds through fins.

106
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:15,600
And the porpoise kept on, when the baby shock got sick, it kept on taking the shock and throwing it up in the air because it was suffocating.

107
00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,600
And finally killed the fish.

108
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:24,600
I saw a porpoise killer shark, a Boca Chica right just outside of King West one day.

109
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,600
This shark was about ten feet long and he was up in this water which is only about six feet deep.

110
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,600
And all of a sudden we saw these porpoises coming in.

111
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,600
Two of them hit that shark and knocked him all the way out of the water.

112
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,600
And every time he hit the water another one was swacking.

113
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,600
And they were just ramming into the shark.

114
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,600
That's sort of their curious combination.

115
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,600
The shark is such a brave little creature.

116
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,600
Yeah, and boy they battered him around.

117
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,600
In five minutes he couldn't even swim.

118
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,600
And finally he just sank to the bottom and that was it.

119
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,600
But it took him about, I'd say all together, seven or eight minutes to kill him.

120
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,600
There were about a dozen porpoises involved and they were really battering him around.

121
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,600
And the first time when two of them hit him all together at the same time he came right out of the water.

122
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,600
He was up three, four feet.

123
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:19,600
You know, one of the, just returning in your book, I think what I appreciate most about it was the way you managed to crowd in

124
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:25,600
all these very interesting stories and your ability to condense each story,

125
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,600
which normally I think would be very difficult, but you're dealing in the unusual,

126
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,600
that's what they say, standard things.

127
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:33,600
But be careful, don't say that.

128
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,600
I am careful.

129
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,600
You're dealing here, then.

130
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:45,600
You're dealing in the unusual, I mean in relation to the stories of their nature that I imagine in writing them,

131
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,600
that's quite a problem that's a lot to leave out because everything is important,

132
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,600
especially that of the unusual.

133
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:58,600
So your ability to condense it to three pages of book style, each story, and yet to me,

134
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,600
not leave out general things that should be tolerated.

135
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,600
Let me explain something here.

136
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,600
This, that was a problem.

137
00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:14,600
Because in many of these, I had a great deal of material that dealt with this particular story.

138
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,600
Yeah, in some of the chapters he almost switched that you would have gone.

139
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:18,600
Yeah.

140
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:26,600
And in order to give a lot of variety to the book, and without that it would have been meaningless,

141
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:33,600
in order to get variety into it and still keep it interesting without deleting any of the essentials

142
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:39,600
and without going overboard on some of the stories that he's running them out beyond the necessary,

143
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:45,600
I had to write and rewrite, which for me is rather unusual, but my problem was simplified to some extent

144
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,600
because originally I wrote things for a radio series called Stranger Than Science,

145
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,600
which is now running in five or six countries.

146
00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:00,600
We just made a deal with Australia last week to run these things.

147
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,600
And I know they're running in Trinidad and Bermuda and Canada and the United States,

148
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,600
and Australia and several places.

149
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:13,600
And so I had, in order to get these into radio form, I had to cut them down,

150
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,600
cut them pretty short and make them as compact as possible, if Detroit would say.

151
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:24,600
And so that helped me to a large extent to keep them being overly wordy on these things

152
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,600
and to at the same time get some variety into them.

153
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,600
We just received somebody just brought into the studio.

154
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:32,600
A five foot show?

155
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:39,600
A very long telegram, and it says on the top of it, don't read.

156
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,600
So I guess we might as well read it. Maybe it's something metaphysical.

157
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,600
Maybe we'll get a chance to read it later if somebody can interpret it.

158
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,600
You know, Robin, on the top of your head.

159
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,600
So I'll put it aside that we won't comment on it because the person has requested that it should not be.

160
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,600
I thought you were hanging wallpaper on it.

161
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,600
There's no record?

162
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,600
Yes, well, I certainly want to study that in a little while.

163
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,600
And I'd like to talk now about Carnegie Delacatec and Replicant, which is...

164
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,600
That's the number of those cases, I'll read it.

165
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:17,600
They're on record, let's say in the last 150 or 200 years there have been a really great number of those things.

166
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:23,600
And I mentioned several of them in the book here where all of a sudden, for no apparent reason,

167
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:30,600
in rather generally and localized instances, it would become just as dark as at midnight.

168
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,600
And I think I have one of the cases in there in Minnesota where this happened.

169
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:43,600
And also a case up in New England where it got so dark in the middle of the day that this legislative body that was meeting had to light candles

170
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,600
in order to get around in the room.

171
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,600
And they thought I wanted to adjourn and go home because they thought it was the end of the world.

172
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,600
And they thought it was in charge of the meeting set if it is the end of the world.

173
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,600
We'd better stay here and finish this business while we... before it's all over.

174
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:04,600
And there was no explanation for any of these that I was able to find.

175
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:11,600
Well, there isn't one of the usual explanations that is given a... something like forest fire.

176
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:19,600
Well, there was one case, I think it was long enough, 52 or 53, where there was the so-called blue days.

177
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:27,600
And this was described, for instance, in the... as a great forest fire in western Canada.

178
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:35,600
But the... giving the joke of that was that if this was caused on our east coast by the forest fire in western Canada,

179
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,600
it was on a day when the wind was blowing in two directions at the same time.

180
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:46,600
Because the charge show very clearly that the smoke from the forest fire in western Canada was going westward over the mountains and over the Pacific.

181
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,600
And it was comparatively localized.

182
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:59,600
And the thing that was not explained was how this same condition allegedly brought about the blue and green days over Denmark and Scandinavia,

183
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,600
about six or seven days after it happened in this country.

184
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,600
There seems to be a connection between these events then.

185
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,600
Well, I don't know about that. I just know that I found several of them.

186
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:19,600
And although they were attributed to the same condition, in that case I just mentioned this most recent one, in the early 50s,

187
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:26,600
I couldn't see how they could... in view of the circumstances that are known to exist.

188
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:35,600
And I don't see how they could attribute the same thing, these blue and green days in these other countries to the condition in western Canada.

189
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:44,600
Have you gotten any reports on red days in the sky with the olive red and the light with the red?

190
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:50,600
Well, of course, after the explosion of Krakatoa back in the preceding century, there were some days like that.

191
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:59,600
And although it's not generally known, there were some days like that immediately preceding the explosion of Krakatoa.

192
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,600
How is that accounted for?

193
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:09,600
Well, of course, the ones that followed it were explained as the dust, and may well have been dust from the explosion.

194
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,600
But what caused the ones before that? I don't know, nor did I ever find any explanation.

195
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,600
Frank, did you ever go to Duke University and visit the parapsychology laboratory?

196
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,600
No, I was never there.

197
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,600
Have you ever talked with Ryan?

198
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:24,600
Only by phone once.

199
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:25,600
Just by phone, yes.

200
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,600
Do you have any opinions about his work?

201
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:41,600
Well, I think that he's certainly a brave soul to venture out into that field, which is a cruise among the dam, certainly, because he is dealing with subjects which are highly controversial,

202
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,600
and which in many cases are regarded as simply non-existent or fraudulent.

203
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:56,600
And yet he's had the courage and had the support of the university and has done, I think, some remarkable research in these various fields that he's dealt with.

204
00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:04,600
Ben, I wanted to ask about something on the flyleaf of your book, or Ben's other titles.

205
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,600
And I was wondering how you lost 10 million sponsors.

206
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:14,600
Well, as far as I know, I'm the only fellow who ever did lose 10 million sponsors, and I lost them all in one night.

207
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:22,600
Then at the time, this was in August of 1954, I had been sponsored on the mutual network by the AFML, as a matter of fact.

208
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:29,600
I was the first news commentator ever to have a labor sponsor on a national basis.

209
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,600
And only one.

210
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,600
No, there have been others since then.

211
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:41,600
And I was the first one to be on a national basis with a labor organization as a sponsor.

212
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:47,600
I had some disagreements with a few of the hierarchy there at the AFML.

213
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:54,600
By and large, I had a long time with those sponsors as I have with many others during my 36 years in this business.

214
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,600
And that covered actually only four years of my career.

215
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:03,600
But it came to the point where we had to have a parting of the ways since we couldn't have a meeting of minds.

216
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,600
And I tried to resign and got fired.

217
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,600
I have the footprints to prove it.

218
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,600
What was the dedication in your book?

219
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,600
In this particular book, Stranger and Sight.

220
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,600
Candy, a devoted friend.

221
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,600
It's not like candy, it might be a strip teaser, doesn't it?

222
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,600
Yeah, I was wondering.

223
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,600
No, candy in this case, man, it happens to be my little Boston terrier, a real cute little scamp.

224
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:36,600
And she was on a lot of television shows with me when I was out in the Midwest doing nightly television news commentaries.

225
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,600
Candy got to coming in and climbing up on my lap.

226
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:45,600
And so in order to, one night in order to make it a little easier for me, I put her up on the desk and told her to lie down.

227
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,600
So she did.

228
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,600
And she would lie there and watch the camera lens.

229
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,600
I almost motionless all during the show.

230
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,600
But when I set my sign off, good night to the news and good luck, she knew what that meant.

231
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,600
And she bounced up like she had a spring at her.

232
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,600
And she got to be real popular, in fact, more than I.

233
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,600
And it got to the point where I was really, I think, just a guest on her program.

234
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:15,600
And she's a very well-behaved little scamp and really reels the roost at our house.

235
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,600
So I thought at least I could do some dedicated to book tour.

236
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:23,600
There were a lot of friends and a lot of readers for that little pitch there, believe me, because we have a lot of dog lovers.

237
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:31,600
I know we've had discussions about the, I'm thinking of Peggy and Chris Cheryl.

238
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,600
They give me the...

239
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,600
The what? The what? The Gamefist?

240
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:36,600
Yeah.

241
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,600
No, I mean, Peggy and Chris Cheryl's pitch about the intersection.

242
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,600
Oh, right.

243
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:49,600
And at least any time there's a discussion about the intersection, we have all of the animal lovers.

244
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,600
And believe me, they'll be happy to know that.

245
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:52,600
I did a big fight on that.

246
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,600
Well, I was on actually on that AFML program along in the 50s there.

247
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,600
And I got into it through Estelle Taylor, remember?

248
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:00,600
Oh, yes.

249
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:01,600
Yes.

250
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,600
And she was, of course, then living in Hollywood.

251
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:04,600
She's died since then.

252
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,600
But she knew how I felt about that when this fight came along, why she got my interest.

253
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,600
I went out there and spent some time and I did quite a campaign on it.

254
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,600
But Estelle was a wonderful fighter for the underprivileged pro-chess.

255
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:24,600
And so I had a lot of fun and a lot of fine support from Miss Taylor and others in the field.

256
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,600
And you represented the AFML on that news program.

257
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:36,600
Your news comments, were those written by you and uncensored by AFML?

258
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:42,600
Well, they were written by me for about three years of the four years and uncensored.

259
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:52,600
But in about the last, I'd say perhaps the last ten months of my tenure or my term of service there,

260
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,600
they put a fellow along with me who was called an editor.

261
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:04,600
But actually he was a center and he was put on there to see that I carried out his orders.

262
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,600
And they certainly didn't coincide with my idea of news coverage.

263
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:17,600
And I fought him off for a while, but I finally got tired of that because actually he had the support of a couple of fellows who were in a strategic position there.

264
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,600
And I couldn't possibly win in the long run.

265
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,600
So there's no use fighting indefinitely about what you can win.

266
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:30,600
But by and large, my relationship with the AFML during the four years or so that I was with him was very good.

267
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:36,600
I mean, with the exception of the last few months and why they took that attack, I'll never know, but I'm not particularly...

268
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:37,600
Well, you were not AFML.

269
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,600
That's a sure thing.

270
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:40,600
Well, no.

271
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,600
So what were they going to send you?

272
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:51,600
Well, they wanted to be sure that I quoted some AFML bigwig about every other night.

273
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:58,600
And for instance, one of them had made a trip to Germany at the AFML's expense.

274
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,600
Well, he went over there actually to visit his grandparents.

275
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,600
And when he came back in order to justify...

276
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,600
In fact, I was surprised.

277
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:08,600
I didn't know he had any grandparents.

278
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,600
I thought they wanted them to raffle.

279
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,600
But when he came back, he wanted...

280
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:24,600
In order to justify his having spent all his money, he wanted me to carry a three-minute tape of the conditions, the economic conditions in West Germany

281
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,600
as he had found them during his three-day stay there.

282
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,600
So I cut the tape in two and used part of it.

283
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,600
But this was typical of the problem by hand.

284
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,600
Well, Frank, in all fairness to the AFML,

285
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,600
it is also typical so often of commercially...

286
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,600
That is a sponsored news program sponsored by commercial organizations.

287
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:48,600
Does it not?

288
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,600
Well, I have never had that experience, Al.

289
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:57,600
I can't recall a single instance where I've been sponsored by a commercial organization

290
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:03,600
where they tried to get me to carry some big story, plugging the sponsor as an individual.

291
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:04,600
Yes, it is.

292
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:05,600
And that's what this would amount to.

293
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,600
This is sort of an annoying thing.

294
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,600
You like to think that only the opponents do this.

295
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:20,600
I was thinking of Congressional Junkins when he brought up that trip to Germany.

296
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,600
It was very amusing to find out that the AF is available there also.

297
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,600
Well, I don't condone it, of course.

298
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,600
It's in fact a form of either source.

299
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,600
But again, in all fairness, it has done both ways.

300
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:42,600
Many a president of a corporation or a law restaurant or an office of that matter

301
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:48,600
takes a little jump into Europe or elsewhere on a really personal situation

302
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,600
where he is surveying the market.

303
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,600
Oh, yes.

304
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,600
So he is studying rural conditions, et cetera.

305
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:55,600
No question about it.

306
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,600
I decided he was impoverished.

307
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,600
Well, I didn't object to this fellow spending the AFL's money.

308
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,600
That was none of my business.

309
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,600
In fact, I worked for the mutual network then as I do today.

310
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,600
But I was sponsored by the AFL.

311
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,600
And that was an arrangement between the mutual and the AFL.

312
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,600
And it was none of my business how the AFL executives spent their money.

313
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,600
But it was my business when I was put in the position of carrying a propaganda piece

314
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,600
for one AFL executive under the guise of noon to help him cover up a five-a-jugging

315
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,600
to his grandmother's knee and other joints.

316
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,600
And I just didn't prefer to do that.

317
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,600
He was a big push out of action for a while.

318
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,600
Well, only briefly, actually.

319
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:49,600
I was not, when the dust settled after that, when I went to work out at the American University

320
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,600
there in Washington making some films for television.

321
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:58,600
Incidentally, the first one we made had Willie Lay and Jonathan Leonard, the science editor

322
00:23:58,600 --> 00:23:59,600
of Time Magazine.

323
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:06,600
And they were, and on the other side of me was Major Donald Keyville and William Natch,

324
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,600
the veteran pilot for Pan American Airlines.

325
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:16,600
And the subject of our 30-minute heated discussion was what are the flying saucers?

326
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,600
The fur was flying as well as the saucers.

327
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,600
There is something now for you to think about a moment.

328
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,600
I've known you now, I guess, for about two, two and a half years.

329
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,600
Two years and twenty, doesn't it?

330
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,600
The life of the world.

331
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,600
But in talking with you many times, you have suggested to me, and I know that you meant

332
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,600
well, you thought that you were giving me constructive criticism and suggestions.

333
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:49,600
You suggested that it would be nice if we dealt once in a while with theatrical people

334
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,600
and sort of get away from the offbeat subjects of flying saucers.

335
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,600
And yet here's a man that you have a tremendous amount of admiration and respect for, Frank

336
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:06,600
Edwards, and you see that this is, I would say, a major portion of his discussion,

337
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,600
which is certainly an important part of the thing that he discusses.

338
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,600
And there's interest, a definite tremendous interest on the pilot listeners.

339
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,600
I don't doubt it.

340
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:23,600
And when a man of Frank Edwards' caliber, and I am not being pleasant to him because

341
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,600
he is present this evening, I said it before I ever mentioned, then I am willing to listen

342
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:35,600
and to discuss, I agree with that, Joe, and where I have openly fore and again with

343
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:42,600
sincerity and trying to be constructive and saying that I know everything, I just felt

344
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,600
this, that offbeat in itself can be interesting, no question.

345
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,600
But its validity sometimes, when it comes from a person who has just offbeat themselves

346
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:59,600
without any background whatsoever, might be misleading and might at times also be boring.

347
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:06,600
But if a man of Frank Edwards' background, and he finds interest, but then here's a credible source,

348
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,600
here's a reputable source that is interesting to come to him.

349
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,600
That was my only point.

350
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,600
The source of the information, rather than the information itself, was what I thought was important.

351
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,600
What about the, would you put, made you Donald Key or that same pressure?

352
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Well, of course you're putting me in a spark between any individuals, but since you're

353
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,600
asking me to do it and I am working call for, wish me courageously, no, I cannot put them

354
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,600
in this dead-wit category whatsoever.

355
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,600
I didn't mean as a news commentator, I mean as an authority on causes.

356
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,600
Well, as an authority on sources, I, that's a difficult question.

357
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,600
As an authority that I'd like to listen to.

358
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,600
Well, let me say this.

359
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:51,600
I personally feel that Keyhole is far better informed on the subject of UFOs than I am,

360
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:58,600
because he has access, because of his military background and connections, he has access

361
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:07,600
to a lot of friends in the service who will talk to him off the record and discuss things

362
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,600
with him which I could never get.

363
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,600
Very, excuse me.

364
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,600
Possibly, that's maybe so in the Keyhole's case, I don't know.

365
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:25,600
But the fact of his majority is certainly not if so fact though to be accepted that he

366
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:31,600
has sources of information, because I might have looted, I had an office of ship in the

367
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,600
reserve of the Army of the United States, a long while ago.

368
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,600
If you want to win that war, go ahead.

369
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,600
That is, that is.

370
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:40,600
And I might have looted.

371
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,600
I know there was something about you I didn't quite like, I got along very well with the

372
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:45,600
men.

373
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Very well indeed.

374
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,600
Let me tell you how it was in San Juan Hills, I must say.

375
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:50,600
You're right.

376
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,600
You, Johnny, had a really good life.

377
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,600
But why was there a British decide?

378
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:55,600
No, seriously.

379
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:01,600
So the fact that Major Keyhole, he don't know, has a majority, doesn't mean he has military

380
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,600
friends and sources of information from.

381
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,600
As a newsman, your ability to obtain news, although some people may be reluctant to give it to

382
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:15,600
you, I think it will be far greater than any of the thousands of ex-military officers roaming

383
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,600
around now and all sorts of positions that have nothing to do with those words.

384
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Let me explain this to you.

385
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,600
I don't know how much you know about Keyhole, but he was a major in the Marine Corps in World

386
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,600
War I.

387
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,600
He also was a balloonist and balloon instructor prior to World War I.

388
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,600
He taught flying during World War I and afterward.

389
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:46,600
He was a aide to Colonel Lindbergh when Lindbergh made his triumphal tour of the United States.

390
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:54,600
And he has been a, I'd say, a renowned aviation rider for a good many years because of this

391
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,600
very fine background as a flyer.

392
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,600
When he was a balloonist, did he use hot air balloons?

393
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,600
Well, you may be interested in knowing that he preferred gas.

394
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:20,600
I have a lot of respect for Major Keyhole and I think that he is doing, and I know that

395
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,600
there are many people that are critical of him.

396
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,600
Certainly he is not making a lot of loot in this.

397
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,600
If I continue this, Major Keyhole has lost a lot of money.

398
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:37,600
He has taken and is still taking a terrific financial beating because of his courage in

399
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,600
staying on this particular something because he thinks it's something...

400
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:47,600
When this was originally organized, it looked like there are going to be a lot of big people

401
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,600
involved in this.

402
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,600
They were going to put money into it and Major Donald Keyhole would make a, would get a tidy

403
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,600
income from it, which he's entitled to for the work and the knowledge that, the work

404
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,600
he puts in and the knowledge that he has of the subject.

405
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,600
But something happened, what happened, I do not know, I've heard a lot of rumors, nevertheless

406
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:13,600
there was a certain deterioration in the organization and Keyhole was the only one that stuck with

407
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,600
it and kept the thing together.

408
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,600
And whether you buy Donald Keyhole's ideas or not, this is a man that is sincere and

409
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,600
a man that is doing what I consider to be an excellent job.

410
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:31,600
And anytime that Keyhole wants to step out of there, he can make a classical buck during

411
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:32,600
the country lecturing.

412
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,600
He does not have to pull a lever.

413
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,600
Now he is the director of this organization, John, was by the unanimous vote of the board,

414
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,600
had assisted of some eminent scientists, some generals, those are like Wittemeyer and some

415
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:51,600
Admirals like Forney and men who had known Keyhole and known of his work and of his background

416
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,600
and they voted unanimously for him to head the organization.

417
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:03,600
And I think the guy, as you find out, who deserves a great deal of credit and certainly he deserves

418
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,600
something better than he's had financially because this has cost him personally a very

419
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:09,600
great amount of money.

420
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,600
But I don't understand what he's doing.

421
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,600
I mean, you're all commending him and applauding him and telling him what he's doing.

422
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,600
Well, he's applauded broadly and he's starting to give you an understanding.

423
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,600
Yeah, but you know, no one, no one...

424
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,600
What's the serious question of mine?

425
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,600
No one brought him by the scruff of the neck and said, give up your lucrative business

426
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,600
associations and appointments and the rest of it.

427
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,600
May I just interrupt you?

428
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,600
Basically that's what was done at the time.

429
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:44,600
A group of men decided to form NYCAP and they forced him against the...

430
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,600
Oh no, no, no, that's not being facetious about it.

431
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:53,600
They approached him and they told him that they wanted him to head the organization and

432
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,600
with great reluctance he decided to accept their offer.

433
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,600
What was he doing as an expert in this?

434
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,600
He was writing books.

435
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,600
He wrote the... he collaborated with Charles Lindbergh on one book.

436
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:11,600
He wrote a number of articles for the top magazines, Saturday Evening Post, True Magazine,

437
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:17,600
Argosy Magazine and the now defunct literary digest.

438
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:18,600
Yeah.

439
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,600
And he's a very competent writer in his particular field.

440
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:29,600
He was lecturing and all and he decided to get behind this thing because he believes,

441
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:35,600
and I think he still does, that he believes that we need an organization in Washington

442
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:42,600
to try to bring to the public the facts about, I won't call them flying saucers, about UFOs.

443
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:49,600
Now it is his opinion that the government is concealing some of the information that they have.

444
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:57,600
This is not necessarily my opinion, but if a man is so sincere in his belief, then I

445
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,600
think he deserves our respect and admiration.

446
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:02,600
So sincerity always.

447
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,600
Oh, that's not the question.

448
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:11,600
Do you believe that the government is withholding information on whatever knowledge they have

449
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,600
of unidentified objects that you do?

450
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,600
Do they have some answers to the question?

451
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,600
Well, that they have a great deal more information than they will put out.

452
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,600
Now, Nykap has a letter from Nathan Twining.

453
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,600
We had written to him, and I think this was over the signature of Admiral Hillencutter,

454
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:35,600
asking him if any attempt had been made to contact these things or to communicate with them.

455
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,600
And if so, what the results were.

456
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,600
And he needs to reply, much to our surprise.

457
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:48,600
General Twining said that attempts had been made, but the results had been negative because

458
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,600
of what we assumed to be physical reasons.

459
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:57,600
We asked him to amplify that physical reason, and we did not get a reply to that.